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VR Jobs and Neverdie

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Ghostier View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ghostier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 2016 at 7:28pm
Farming

I was originally thinking fruit to be grown on the farm and that it would fit in with the use of the fruit and make it easier to code for the developers, and also fit into my ‘make it easier for newbies’ thoughts.  But, if you think it would interfere with the current option of gathering fruit - which I have done, but find very tedious and I’m not sure many use the option after a while of spending so much time watching the screen in hope of randomly finding some.  As you said, most people take the easiest route.  I have stopped fruit walking and only occasionally stumble upon these random things (fruit, stone, dung) now.

So, the Landowner can designate a portion, or all, of the land to farming and based on that portion selected, he would pay the fee for planting and the land would be automatically planted?  The trees would grow automatically and become ready for harvesting?

I like your ideas in as much as I can follow them.  Forgive me if I misunderstand anything.  But, the division of fruit being a conundrum, why not make the harvesting be similar to sweating.  The current coding for sweating could be modified to fit the new structure and save some time and money in getting implemented.

This way, since fruit won’t work because it cuts into that industry, how about something like a rubber tree, where the Landowner plants them, but the people come and harvest it like sweat.  The Landowner can draw a tax of some kind as it is being collected, like you said.  That way the collection will be more fare and based on skill just like sweating is now, the ‘rubber’ is sold like sweat and is used in manufacturing, clothing, weapons, armor, vehicle tires, airship seals.  Thusly, MA gains from a small deteriate factor on these items and the need to service them at a new job type - service station attendant/mechanic, or a MA controlled refit station where they make a profit.  The product from the trees could be random as well fitting into your idea of silk.  The higher the skill the more chance at harvesting silk, the more valuable item.  Heck, the possibilities are very promising to randomize it and make it more interesting.  The tool could still be the same, but the results randomish based on skill level of course, with an extreme chance at global from finding something ‘stuck’ in the tree, or something like that, just to make it attrctive.

Security

I see your points clearly.  I will have to keep this one on the back burner.

Leisure activities

Your points are well made, but what I envision is a twofold draw for the player that benefits, the Landowner and MA. 

First off, it will not be the experience, it will be the challenge.  This could be the challenge of completing the activity, or the challenge of competing against others within the activity.  This opens up other possibilities for all to profit.  The entry fee, the prizes, the gain for the promoter to promote for the owner. 

Secondly, the gain in skills that will help the player in other areas of the game.  Gains could be strength, agility, health, psych stats, etc.  The possibilities for player gain could be appealing in and of themselves.  Not to mention the experience, for whatever it is worth in accomplishing something, or been there done that, let’s do it again.  A simple check on the sales of other Leisure type games will reveal the potential and benefit of including them in the Entropia universe.  I have seen a racetrack on Arkadia.  What is that there for?  Put it to use.  MA should take advantage of this opportunity and make it available.

Inventor

Sorry but this balance issue you bring up is beyond my knowledge.  I admit that this would be an extremely hard profession to develop.  However, when I see that people can change colors and make clothing, and make weapons, I want to take it to a higher level and make it possible to experiment with new concepts, like water cannons, and ground pounders, Thor hammers, a boomerang.  I realize that making it possible to experiment within a game is a difficult, and dangerous, concept, but I have played games where the player can experiment with combining different things to arrive at helpful potions.  Why not in this game, only it would be with the different materials already available.  It could be programmable to make combining different things in different amounts results in something new.  We can already upgrade our weapons and armor with components, why not tweak these, or even the components themselves by making it possible to create new items.   MA could also make it a super secret thing within the game, so that when people do find or discover this new item, it will be a buzz creator and people who like challenges will start experimenting and spending to try to make something new.  They will combine (use) the materials and cause a drive to gain more so they can experiment and try to make something new that they can sell to those who like to have the newest and coolest.  I can see this and the leisure making the game more interesting and drawing in additional players.

The Newbie, diehard issue.

I really can’t believe the depth at which this mindset holds people.  Please understand me; I am not trying to insult you, but this is a real no-brainer.  The first difficulty is that you keep thinking of it as a long-term thing.  I wouldn’t make it more than one or two weeks and how I would do that is by making the free stuff last longer and maybe programming in an extra boost of ammo loot for someone who is at a starter level. 

I will try to explain the concept again so it will help whoever reads it to float up closer to the surface of reality.  Those who are ‘trying’ the game more often than not realize early on that they will have to deposit or be stuck doing something they do not enjoy for long periods of time.  Therefore, many of them give up.  I almost did.  I have met people who actually have given up rather than pay.  This is a huge loss to MA, and here is the reason why.

Those who have been playing for long periods of time are more willing to stick around and push through the tough times of sweating, or they will outright deposit.  They have seen the payoffs, and just as the gambler, will pay in for the chance to stick around and be one of those.  The casinos know the more people you have that become regulars the more income you will generate on a regular basis.  Those who come and spend twenty dollars will likely only do so on their birthdays, if then.

A person who plays for free for a longer period of time will more likely than not stick around because they have already invested something more valuable than money, they have invested their time.  If that time is cut short by the realization that they will have to pay in a game that claims to be free to play, they will likely cut their losses and leave.  Those who play longer will realize it is just the way things are.

If that new person is allowed to play longer, by having a longer lasting weapon instead of a shorter lasting weapon – which is not common knowledge.  They think all the weapons they buy will be as short lived. – they will be able to earn enough loot to get them started in a game where they will be doing what they signed in to do - kill stuff.  The longer they are nurtured toward frequent player, the more they will likely realize it is worth paying to play, because they are having fun.  Require them to deposit early on, or sit for long periods of time sweating is counterproductive, because they will likely quit.

Let’s face the facts, Every single game that claims to be free to play is only free to play if you want the basic play experience.  MA is no different than them.  But I, and I suspect most others, catch on quick that a deposit is required to get a better experience.   So the owners take steps to try right off the bat to gain a quick buck from the player.  This is annoying and downright disappointing to the new player who thought the claim to play for free had no strings attached. 

The old saying is true, you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.   Well the best thing for MA to do is be different than all those others.  Let the new person get used to the game and settled in to enjoying it before requiring deposits or sweating.  Make it sweet.  Make it that the newbie, can play a whole week or maybe even two before they have to deposit.  That way they will be hooked in and have spent more of what is more precious than money – their time.  Then they will say, well I don’t have the money right now, but I will have it next payday, let me sweat until then and I will keep playing. Or, they will say, I have gotten some real enjoyment out of this game, now that I have run out of ammo (or my weapon is depleted), I’ll deposit so I can buy more.

All I am saying is make the game easier to play ‘for free’ for a longer period of time, so people will be more apt to stick around and become the diehard depositor.  Why is this so hard to understand?  It is as simple as 1+1=2.  If you make it 1+0=1 then there is no gain.  Wait until all the 1+1=2 add up to 20 before you make the equation equal 20+0=20 because 20 at that point is way more satisfying than 1 and less daunting than saying give me $20 right off the bat.

Now having said all that, answer this question for yourself, not on the board, because I just want you to realize something.  Why have you not played for 3 to 4 months?

Most people who quit doing something, quit because they are not pleased with it.

Lifelike and Cost of developing.

I have combined these two since they are so closely related.  The dream – the holodeck.  The reality – supply and demand.  Can you not see the demand being extremely profitable the closer we get to reality?  In fact that is the driving force toward realistic looking games, so why not more than just realistic looking? If the demand is there the profit is there.  It’s as simple as that.  MA invests; they get return, what is wrong with that.  The economy is not just spend it is return of investment.  We invest time working, we get a paycheck, we spend that paycheck.  It’s been going on forever, so why do you focus so much on the cost.  Most of the cost will be covered as demand becomes greater and demand will become greater when more realism is achieved.  Again, a no-brainer.  Cost to develop is just a simple part of that equation.  Getting and keeping more depositors is the challenge and I see that coming intrinsically by the game becoming more enjoyable and more lifelike.

TPs - Totally agree.

Confusion – It’s just my inexperience with acronyms and not being an economist/mathematician.

Overhaul

I think my idea of an overhaul and yours are two different things.  I’m talking about making new options, not complete change.  Maybe a compromise would be a new world that could be beta tested.  If it doesn’t work sell it to the highest bidder to harvest it’s resources.  How do you know many have left the game over changes?  Have you known some of those who have left? Are we talking thousands of people or just a few?  Are these statistics somewhere researchable or are you guessing?  I seriously doubt that anyone who has invested their house into this game would give it all up and quit.  As for the legal standing, it’s not plausible in my view.  Investments are made, and lost, all the time without legal recourse.  Game design change could hardly be a cause for a legal action.

Economy

You have obviously been around longer than I, so you likely have a better understanding of how the game works.  However (and you can try to enlighten me if I am off base here), since it is a real economy game, doesn’t it work like a real economy.  I mean it is supply and demand, right?  And just as it is in our real economy companies provide services or product and demand pushes that.  Likewise, some things come and go.  There are no video stores in the USA right now because the red box vending system pushed them out, but the economy didn’t implode because of it.  Walmart is pushing out the little guy, but this world keeps on spinning and people keep on spending – some at Walmart some at the new little guy.  A new phone comes out, people spend huge amounts of money on them and in two years time it’s value decreases because a new phone comes out.  What is the difference in this game?  No one is doing new things that people have a demand for.  This is what I am calling stagnant.  So, the price of sweat has decreased.  The best fix is to make something to take it’s place.  Make more opportunity for free enterprise by making more options.  I think the new things will automatically make new enterprise

I don’t understand why everything about this game with you is fear of losing money or opportunity.  You have said it yourself, people deposit because it is a game.  That is the driving force in the real-life economy of the game.  Make it valuable enough for people to keep doing that.  Give them reasons to keep doing that.  Don’t be afraid that you will push the old away, they will stay if you give them a reason.  And sometimes things just fade into the sunset.  Embrace and nurture the new, that is what a real economy does.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Barnesy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 2016 at 8:06pm
Economy 

Yes, the economy is a little stagnate atm, but this is not because of a limited economy, Rather its because of things like crafters doing EP and miners / hunters replacing their standard equipment set with viable Unlimited items.

But its not fully stagnate, there are still over tens of thousands of ped in items moved daily. While it would be nice to have new items, most competitive players have there next 2 weapons lined up based on the numbers and not how it works, so implementing 10 new guns might not do much because they're all sub-par to our current set, or the other way, their that little bit better so our current weapon set loses demand. 
Then its just the people buying based on looks, so just your casual plot along guy.

The newbie die hard issue ?

Its not depth were missing, when we all first started the game believe me we all wish the start was easier to, i'm still technically a noob in the game because i have no skills to boot, but i've found a way to make some ped around that.

However when you simple say, make starting easier, you kinda have to make everything else scale to that. To be fair, sweating has gotten harder because of the newer community only sitting on sweating as as a form of income, and not just the $10 monthly, i'll test a few things out and see what works. 

It would be nice to have an easier start, but your short sighting the long term problems have, and you can't just go, what have i earned in 2 weeks and repeat, some of the bigger ped players play their ped cards on monthly cycles. Their paycheck at the end of the month might be you lost 5k / 10k ped this month, and they spend the next 2 months recovering. 

Remember, you come off the training island with 10-20 ped of stuff, a gun, ammo, mining equipment, that sort of thing (off memory) if the first thing you did is went and spent it all, well there's your trial period over. The game lets you sweat out more ped, but that is all it gives you. 

You do have to be careful, because currently there are people who run system setups where they have 10+ accounts and cheap pcs just sweating and deflating the market price. MA does not want to make sweating an easier income, its meant to be worse then working at maccas. What people need to understand is that you need to be like, i have a job, i can afford $10 of that spendable income and have a try at this game. People these days expect F2P to mean i can get to the end with some sort of grind. 
This grind just happens to be bigger then Mt Everest and has a Real cash reward at the end. 

i can't spend too long this morning, but i think our whole disconnect here is around this sweating and easier start issue. 
"It'll be fun" they said! But now, i have no Ped :(

EP goals:
Have lots of EPCC:
Got : None, They took em all man, they took em all!!!

Thanks for the great site Tia!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ghostier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 2016 at 11:41pm
Again, I am flabbergasted by your logic, because (as I see it) t is not fully thought out.  It is reasoned with a that won’t work mindset.  You assume that you know the thought processes of every player and every player only thinks in one manner in your view.  Maybe as a trader you have insight that I don’t, but it seems to me that there are players at different levels, having different personalities, with different goals and those are just a few of the differences.  I am proposing things that will help the appeal broaden to fit more of these differences.  And correct me if I am wrong, but even the unlimited items have an upkeep cost.  The ten new guns might be appealing to those who are at a different level in the game or have a different income in the real world, limiting their deposit potential.  You keep approaching these ideas of mine with (forgive me for saying it) a single sort of defeatist mentality.  So what if the current weapon set loses demand.  The enterprises I am proposing, if put into place, will come into demand and so will the materials used to make them.

Why would you have to make everything scaled to an easy start - to be fare?  We are not trying to be fare, we are trying to figure out ways to generate more income.  You say that sweating has become harder because the newer community has been sitting on sweating as a form of income, but that is what I am trying to get rid of keep the newbie in the field hunting, mining, resourcing (still don’t know why this is not a starter mission).  They will enjoy it better and MA will have a greater potential to keep them on board. 

What do you mean you will test a few things out and see what works?  Are you a coder for MA?  Is that why you are so opposed to new ideas?  Would they cause more work for you?

Why are we concerned with the problems of the bigger ped players?  The point you make very clear is that they spend the next two months catching up.  They are obviously in it to win it.  Again, I am talking about gathering more into the flock so they can grow up to be bigger ped players.  It seems again to be that defeatist approach coming at me again.  All who have gone before had it rough. And what, so should they?  I wish I had a way of looking into stats on how many leave and how long they give it before giving up.  I am sure the number will be higher than you think and every one of those who have tried and quit are a bigger loss to MA than any loss for any other reason.  I guarantee it.  Everyone knows retention is much preferable to loss.  Why can’t you see it.

You mention what a newbie gets and that it’s value is 10 – 20 ped.  Is that a literal cost to MA?  Do they have to pay someone to stand there and issue these things?  No, it is automated according to the program.  How is that a true cost.  I’m talking about giving twice that much or even more in an attempt to get them hooked in.  This is not rocket science.  It makes perfect sense.  Give them something that doesn’t cost.  Casinos give things away all the time because they know that the person will spend it and likely spend more.  Why are you so stuck in “that’s the way it’s always been done”?  I’m talking about incentive to stick around a while longer so they will fall in love with the game.  Come on man.  Why can’t you see the logic in it?

I am not wanting to make sweating easier, I want to make them not want to sweat until they get into the game and really need to.  You are not listening to me and again you view my ideas with the one sided approach.  Not all people expect the game to be free but I think they are not given enough time to decide if they like it.  Some need it to be more lenient in the beginning so they can really sink their teeth into it and by then hopefully they will be like the bulldog and not let go.  I don’t intend to play for free, but I can’t deposit at this time.  Your way says don’t care about that guy, take advantage of him or let him suffer and who cares if he gets tired of it and quits.  All I am asking for is a longer time of being able to enjoy the game as an incentive to stay longer.  After about a week or two of playing, they will be more likely to stay.

There will always be people who know how to take advantage, how is the longer start going to reduce that?

Is MA making their money on TTs or on the deposits that enable the TTs and the free trade, and those who just down right love the challenge or socializing that is playing game?  I don’t follow the logic of thinking they need to keep people spending money to keep depositing.  People spend in the game that is the nature of the game, just like a real economy.  Everyone’s focus should be on increasing longterm depositors not loss prevention.   Stop trying to make the old phones more valuable and invent a new phone that people will want to spend money on.  That will drive the economy.

What I see is that people stockpile and try to build wealth, which is both good and bad.  It is good because those who do so continually push toward that and often invest toward that end.  However, it is also bad because a huge part of the deposits are being stockpiled within the game.  Then there is the effect of the intergame flow of money, which also stagnates the long-term depositing.   This is why increased long-term depositing should be the focus of the games development, whatever that entails.

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Come on people.  Chime in.  Give your opinion.  Are there any ideas you think are worth backing, or shooting down.  Tell what your opinion is.  I would like to know if anyone feels my ideas are worthy of a try or at least further discussion, or should I concede that the same old way is best and should be saved.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Barnesy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2016 at 11:41am
Assuming to know everyone view
I never said it was every players insight, i gave an example of what players do so you had an example of time to go by, i never said it was everyone's perspective. 

Unlimited items
Yes unlimited items have a decay cost, but when you fix it you pay it tt instead of to another player which is the bases of trade, instead of replacing your limited gun by buying a a crafted replacement (which uses mining ores and hunting loot.). Which is a limit on the economy, i never said anything about decay or cost.

Ten gun example
 The ten new guns thing was an example that our economy is not stagnate, we have a large variety of guns available in each skill set with looks, 10 new guns would be nice to announce, but its not gonna win anybody over really. Besides MA already puts new guns in as the game goes on, that is why we have unique finds every now and then.  

Scaling
 Because that's how you design games, it scales from the start, if step A is more rewarding then step B, then why move to step B in the first place? 
In EU step B would be starting the skill grind process which is a loss, but then you can start stepping towards the end goal which is reliable supplementation 

Defeatist mentality? 
I don't understand how i'm defeated when I've shown more insight on how this unique, never done before, replicated on such a scale yet, game, and you keep trying to push this idea that the start can be easy? If the start was easy, people will stay at the start, then all those non-depo players are now profiting at a faster rate so they can withdraw more often. Then the cost of paying out players becomes greater then the income, and MA go bankrupt, that is why with every activity within the game, you can call it an associated cost, because if the player profits off of it, its possible for them to play that method without depoing. 

Ways to generate more income
What, you mean like fapping, taxi, Walking, some of these jobs that you said were dead, but i can still use to earn some ped. 
Until things like the deeds came around, there was no guarantied payout, you could go on a hunt, kill 10K mobs and not loot a thing. You'd have to be extremely unlucky for it to happen, but there is still a small chance that the dice rolls nothing everytime. This is not a game you want to have your income start and end with just the game.

Test things out?
Im 19 and live in Aus, my skills at coding are limited to making a Yahtzee clone in php, and proof reading, i didn't even do the class long enough to learn how to implement colour / pictures fluently. No im not a worker for MA
That is how the player should be playing 'i pay $10 monthly, i'll test a few things (mining, hunting, crafting, flying, coloring, trading) and see what works. 
I'm sorry you just take things at face value, ill make sure to be extra clear when i'm mimicking a thought process on paper.

Problems of bigger ped players. 
Again i never said i was concerned for them, they know what their doing, and their thoughts and opinions would be far better then mine, but your stuck with me so deal with it. Refer to everyone's point of view 

Growing the flock?
The problem is MA doesn't want to grow the flock as a whole, they want to grow the people who put some money down and play with the enjoyment of the community. In today's world, there is too much of this free handouts that goes around in first world country's, which i admit, is helpful when done right, but like with any human process, is still a flawed process that more and more people are abusing. In F2P games the ration of payers is something like 90% F2P / 10% P2P, on the average online game. This is a game that hands out money for people who have a lot in game, Which is a big problem if F2P players are able to start taking money out of the game. 
This is why the sweating process is literally slave labor, if it wasn't a payless grind, people would just do it, save up and withdraw, then MA is paying people to click a button in there game for long periods of time. They have bills to pay, they need to weed out the people who are just looking for easy cash. 

Having it rough and people leaving. 
Because that is how an economy works, you ever looked at starting a business. You've got like a 1-10 chance of getting to the point where your paying of bills, then you got to get to the point where you are profiting enough to make running it work. You work non-stop the first 5-10 years and if your smart, lucky and play it right, you might just have a successful business worth a couple million. 
Yet it should be easy here? Why, this is some peoples business, if you don't want to make profit and withdraw in this game, that is alright, its not for everyone, but you still need to put your business success or 'skills' high enough to help keep the bills down. For those that can't do it, you just have to leave, this game isn't for you and that is fine to. That is not been negative either    
As for the people leaving rate, i'd say well over 50% leave permanently, and probably close to 80/90% would leave the game for at least 1 period of time where it was going really bad, but decided to come back and have another go. 

People leaving been a loss for MA.
While you expected me to thing people leaving would be higher then you expect and you could say 95% and i would say, there is good reason to that. But the money they would be losing over a initially f2p would also be a lot lower then you think. 10/90, for every 100 people that join, only 10 on average will depo in game, and from there it goes anyway to how regularly and how much. But if they can weed out 80 F2P players and 5 P2P players, the amount the paying players will save by having the ped flow reliable in the regular player, then sit in a f2p account, will far out way the amount of money MA makes, this keeps the depo players going, im not losing to much, i don't mind putting another $100 down.
Like i said, i stuck with it for a year and a half and went, i can enjoy this game for what it is, its not my craze, but i like how it works, and i put down $500 US, or about $750 AU, cause the Aus economy at the moment.

Starting ped. Rention to loss
Where do you get this literal cost to MA ? i never said it cost MA anything, but if you want to be technical it is. Every free ped they hand out is 10c their handing out in real life equivalence (before tax) so when you you get handed that free 10-20ped at the start, there given you a $1/2 in real life, which is why the $1000 withdraw minimum is in place. I know a dollar isn't much, but if i had to give out $1 to every person on this planet, i would be $7 Billion in debt.

YouTube has 800M unique users, i.e. different IPs using the server, 
Imagine if even 10% of them made an account took that 10 ped, then made another account, took another ped, and so on. Over the course of a couple months, MA would be losing 80M dollars per new account on each user rotation (assuming they all made the accounts in sync one after another). While this is extreme, but there would be people out there that make an account, run the tutorial as efficientlyas possible, do the easy pickup quests scattered around, and pass the ped to another account. That is a direct cost on MA if that ped leaves the game into someones bank account. MA does count every ped as a potential loss. 

In a standard F2P game, a large community encourage people to subscribe, and not class the game as dead. Which is why retention is better, however this is not a standard F2P game. but the gaming equivalent of a casino. The casino gives you free things, or in EUs case, that 10 - 20 ped starting equipment, ped, that rare tip from another player, and you stick around, and then you have to pay, you can't stick around free loading in a casino you just have to leave. 


Casinos give things away all the time because they know that the person will spend it and likely spend more.
Would a casino keep giving out freebies if they know almost no one extra will actually spend more? 
The thing is, MA knows that only a very small minority will actually spend more.

I know you don't want to make sweating easier, your looking for an alternative to sweating, and one that pays better. If you can't deposit right now thats fine, i didn't do it for 2 years, but don't sit there sweating so you have ped to spend and lose it, and repeat, until you can depo, when you earn some ped, do some trading, put it to something that another player will give you an income for to save them hassle. There is your alternate income. 

Most of your ideas are for people who have ped to spend, and then you have put tunnels where you can connect it to f2p players to pitch in. Which is the part i see the problem with. 

Its not about the people who take advantage, these are the people who see an opportunity, and depo so they can fulfill it. The longer start doesn't even include them, it reduces the people who arn't even going to depo, a few who might of do get caught, but no system is perfect.

MA makes there money by depoing, since 10 Ped is 1 usd. You can say all ped, and therefore items, have real world value. With this in mind, when someone pulls 10 Ped out of a TT, they have gained $1 without paying MA for it, If they put 10 Ped back in to buy ammo, then MA has gained that dollar back. 

When some one sweats 1 ped out, and they buy ammo, MA just made 10c, (that ped would have come from a player somewhere who did depo, so MA did make that 10c real life, if no players depo, then the loot pool will decrease to nothing, and the game will die.) But that guy goes out and hunts a couple punys and he comes back and tt's everything, and gets paid 1.10ped for his return. MA just lost 1c on the 10c, if he buys more ammo, MA hasn't gained any money since that is still the inital 10c from the depo + 1c from MAs loot drop, but if the player returns with 1.20ped on that next hunt, Ma loss another cent and so forth. meanwhile, that depo player has given his 10c to that player who is not turning over ped in the corner and not cycling it in the community. So with more f2p players, prices go up, but he doesn't get the benefit of the extra players as he is paying for them to play. Now what normally happens is the sweater, will go out with a ped, and come back with .85 ped, and then it goes down from there (if you just assume 85% return rate everytime. However with such a small stock, to sell to a trader, he may will likely only get an extra pec, sometimes not even that, because our material we trade in the thousands. So ped is been put in by depo, given to newbie who normally tt there stuff cause there is no point in trading for tt anyway, and the ped sink is at its worst. Remember its not that 1 ped went into tt, then 0.85 ped of loot went into tt for more ammo, its that 0.15 that is put through code to filiter out some back into the loot pool - with the rest of the ped, and some into the void to keep the currency out of serious inflation. 

Simple put it, if there is 100 000 ped put into the community for January, and no one depo's again, what will happen is everyone spends that ped, it cycles throught its 85% and that last 15%, 5% goes back into the pool, 10% leaves the game. So after the months cycle through, the available ped in game would have lost 10%, and be down to 90 000 ped to use, this pool dries up and its over. 

Now if that 85% return of loot goes to the player, it stays a consistent amount, MA can't temper with the loot a player is holding to filter out anything as it goes back to the pool, so the pools rate of decay is much slower, this means that depo's don't have to depo too much to keep the game floating, as there is enough income to out weight the standard loss, whatever it is, and there is no added pressure as players who understand whats happening don't give MA the loot a run through the tt. It instead gets used in crafting which has its own return rate and decay rate, but the value of the item is more useful, then the ped from tting. 

This is a very simple version of it, i will have to spend a lot more time to clearly explain the systems of it, you'd be better searching for others who have already explained it. 

Spend money to keep depoing.
Because there are bills to be paid, simple. 
Everything that involves the game in some way (mining, hunting) generally has a ped loss of around 10%, most players can't make 11% from another player to cover that initial loss of 10%, but they often can make 6-9% back, so they don't have to worry about depoing until they done so many cycles or have a bad run. Its possible to make $10 last months, but you need to make it by taking from the other players, cause MA is only gonna give you 85% average. Its a competition to see who can make 11% with $10 when 10 people put $10 in. Like cards, we all put $20 in, and we play until one person wins all or after so many rounds players keep their cash, and they all put $20 in and keep playing. 

We don't really need everyones focus on increasing long term depositors and less on loss prevention, its to black and white to separate that, they intertwine way to much for it to work like that, because if MA fixes loss prevention, means that players filter more ped out and then depos occur more, which is your long term depo player.  There comes with alot more webs on that, but its another long topic to search up. and think about. 

This old phone more valuable and make a new phone is kinda a sh*t analogy, cause your the guy with an old phone give me a new phone because that's what people want. Meanwhile people have a different phone that actually works well enough.

Deposits been stockpiled is good and bad, there's no filtration so its what you'd class as dead ped in the pool, but when that ped is spent, and it does get spent or withdrawn, it does not simple sit on a card like an account on another game. Its a boost to the pool, because then this ever so slightly growing pool takes a jump with this old ped returned. 
Everyone deposits at the high end, even those that are often winning still need to deposit, but throwing in ideas that helps the start line will pull things like CLD/AUD returns down, lower returns in activities, of which can turn an old depoing player away. 

Yes its nice to have new things available to help at all levels. But this is an old game, with the main players an older gamer group, this is not a game pandering to the teens of this game generation, but has stuck to what it has done in its generation. 

You can not simple tell every old game to stand up to the current generation or shut down, if you don't like it, you go else where. You let the older players who have proven their value in game play the game they play. If you don't like EU, i encourage you to make your own RCE game, i will play and trial it, but i won't be surprised to find that you miss the mark in either direction , to easy or to hard, of which you go bankrupt or the community does without a window. 

EU has lasted the last decade been standard EU, it does not necessarily need to pander to the next gen to get through it. 
"It'll be fun" they said! But now, i have no Ped :(

EP goals:
Have lots of EPCC:
Got : None, They took em all man, they took em all!!!

Thanks for the great site Tia!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ghostier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2016 at 4:03pm
I'm done.  As I have said, your way of thinking is not realistic and makes too many assumptions that are negative.  I couldn't even finish the dribble you have written because it is not thought out in real terms.  So you wasted your time there.  You will never see my points as viable because you think you know everything. Where are you getting your statistics from?  Your own know it all database is flawed.  I think my purpose has been completed here.  I have given my ideas and tried to work out solutions, but as I said, you are stuck in a single defeatist mindset and I will not waste my time arguing with it.  You didn't even understand what I meant when I said you had a defeatist mentality before because you couldn't see beyond your own self.  Most of the time you misunderstood just as you had then me because you can't see past the end of your nose.

As an example of what I mean when I say you are single minded and defeatist I state the following:  When you say in reference to scaling that "if step A is more rewarding than... (than being the proper word use, also its being not been) than B, then why move to step B in the first place?"  You have made the assumption that I propose step A be more rewarding than step B, when all I am saying is to make it more rewarding than it is at the present time.  That way people will stay longer and actually move on to B.  You have also assumed that A has to be very challenging in order for people to want to move on to B.  Neither of these assumptions are correct.  In fact the exact opposite is true of what I am suggesting.   

Probably the biggest example of your single minded thinking is that you suppose that most players play for free and never deposit and therefore MA is losing money.  The more likely scenario is that every player who sticks around long enough and has the money to do so will deposit something.  You also suppose that those who do not deposit are a loss to MA, but their increase within the game is more likely than not to remain in the game because they are not solely in the game to make money (another of your assumptions).

Another example: Casinos do still give away freebies because they know it works.  You say that no one will use the freebies that I propose and then keep on playing and keep on spending, but the literal fact of the mater is that they will because they do and that is why MA gives the free guns in the first place.  What I was trying to point out is that they should extend that a little further because it is not working as well as it could.  Whoever is taking advantage of that is only stuck in your limited defeatist mind.  The gain, would far outweigh any kind of potential loss.  Instead of shooting down my ideas every single time, why don't you address the issues which you suppose causes MA to loose money.  

Why in the world would you assume that MA doesn't want to grow the flock?  This is just another example of your defeatist attitude.  You are stepping out on a limb that is very thin just to bock my ideas.  Nothing could be farther from the truth, when you say that MA doesn't want to grow the flock. I guarantee it.  Do you expect they will survive without growing.  Believe me, you have no idea of which you speak saying things like that.  I owned my own business for 9 years and it failed because I could not get enough new customers to cover the loss of those who's lives drew them away from me.  Loyalty is one thing, but growth is the lifeblood of a business.  So there you have it.  I know that inexperience has been talking to me all along.  Stop getting in the way of progress.

You got some nerve putting words in my mouth.  You said i'm looking for an alternative to sweating, and one that pays better." I never said that.  I said I want an alternative that brings more options to the game so that people will not loose interest.  Again, it seems you just want to defeat my ideas at any cost and that means you are willing to make stuff up.  Either that or your mind invented that I said that because you were stuck on your own way of thinking.

If people are taking advantage of something MA is doing, why don't devote your time and effort to being productive and find a solution to that problem.  I will tell you why, because it doesn't exist on the scale you think it does.  It is all in that twisted mind of yours that says people always take advantage.  More often than not people are just trying to have fun with the potential of striking it big (just like they do in casinos), but that fun gets cut short too quickly and then they leave without ever depositing.  If given the chance to enjoy it longer they would probably...  Well there I go trying to explain myself to a nitwit again.  As I said, I am done wasting my time.

I hope you have a good life Barnesy, but I have the feeling you will spend it cowering in the corner assuming someone is trying to take advantage of you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ghostier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2016 at 4:43pm
Before I go, Adrastos, I wanted to give up one more idea that has come to me.  I see pets all around and think I understand their purpose as being just another social way for people to spend ped, but I don't understand why this whole thing has not been taken to a higher level.

What I mean is that a pet can also be used as a weapon if it is trained in that way.  Has anyone explored the possibility of training up a pet to be used in combat.  There is potential for people to want this and it could be a source of income for MA if the pet gets injured and needs medical attention, not to mention the cost to player to increase the pet in that way.  

Well, I guess I should explain it more fully, but in light of all I have gone through to defend my other ideas, I would rather just throw it out there and be done with it.  I think you should see the potential game/income growth.  Let me know, though, if you need any elaboration.

And sorry about all that other stuff.  I prefer to have constructive discussion, but when everything I bring to the table is met with nothing but opposition (and that being laced with unsubstantiated BS and what I perceived as outright attacks), I responded in defense.  I guess he and I will never see eye to eye and will have to agree to disagree.

I hope to some day see some change within the game that I can say (at least to myself) look there I had a part in that.  And I further hope that if somewhere, somehow, it is determined that I had a positive effect on the games overall growth, that I could at least hear of it in some way, preferably in the form of a thank you.  After all game growth was always my intent in sharing in this forum.

PS.  What does it mean below when it says "NoFollow is applied to all links from this forum".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MaxHecWalker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 2016 at 5:00pm
Lot's of interesting ideas to be discussed, but I'll just stay on the OP's topic.


What IS being proposed by ND...
"Conscripted users must play 15 hours per month fighting in the war against AI."

FYI:  "Conscription, or drafting, is the compulsory enlistment of people in a national service, most often a military service."  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription

And this is what ND/MA released originally.
  (which has since somehow disappeared from ND's many websites)
http://photos.prnewswire.com/prnfull/20160427/360443-INFO



To the OP's 3 point list:

3) Thats a big list.
 IMO #1 is change the current space PVP system around Space stations.  It is on of the bigger reasons players see EU as a scam, and IMO rightfully so.  
(When a player flys in space and gets nearer a space station at some point they will see the "safe" message, only to have some "pirate" jump them in the safe zone.  This ability to be attacked lasts at least 30 seconds after the so called "safe" message appears.)
The smart thing that MA should have done is to have a wide 'no man's land' buffer zone around the existing safe zones for space stations.


2) One of the reasons I've played EU beyond a few weeks is because how open-ended it is.
No one forces players to do anything, and everything players do is by their choice/decisions.

ND's job creation will remove that by use of CONSCRIPTION, alias involuntary servitude.
Others have already commented they'll sell everything and leave EU if that Commie's idea gets run through EU.
No I'm not saying it'll be a massive exodus, but I'd be surprised if there's not a noticeable increase in the numbers of players leaving afterwards.


1) TP taxes on any New TP's um might be okay... I guess...

ND's concept of defending TP's from Rogue AI is an ammo+repairs money grab which should pay for the TP's, and thereby have no need of taxes...  And TP taxes are yet another thing that F2P won't take part of, alienating them even more from the other half of the player base.

TP taxes on existing will kill trade.
No way will I meet anyone via TP to buy/sell something since it'll just increase costs, so I expect that'll slow down player-to-player trades and increase AH use and those fees...
On the other hand:
 - If people need to pay to TP to Arkadia's Underground then AUD value/ROI will drop noticeably.
 - Some may think loosing many F2P is a good idea but that'll force a fair number of MF using P2P to start sweating mobs, and then their 15 hours of monthly conscription, which leaves them with a lot less time to hunt...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ghostier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 2016 at 5:39pm
I didn't catch on the the conscription thought (what it really meant) until you explained it.  Thanks.

In what ever way it was implemented before, I can understand why it faded out and I don't ever see it as a viable aspect of the game.  I assume that Neverdie doesn't either in the literal sense of the word, because I think he realizes it would be a push away more than an attraction.  You are right, in whatever form, it must be voluntary.

I really don't think, however, that this search for ideas is an attempt to bring conscription back.  I feel it is a desire to spur on new enterprise within the game.

It is very hard to realize a viable solution when we are using conjecture and personal opinion to prove our points.  A lot more would be added to the hashing process if there was source to see actual data related to the topic.  Does anyone know of a statistics site where the average Joe can go and see real facts on what is the current percent of things like f2p vs p2p, or how long do those who leave play before deciding to leave.  It would be a smart thing for them to implement if not already done.  I assume that a company as large as MA would already be tracking just about every aspect of the game that they can.  So is there a web site that shows statistics?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Barnesy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 2016 at 9:10pm
Players have been asking for a better space system for ages, its why i haven't really bothered going to space yet, i just don't want to afk for half an hour only to get blown up by a pirate and have it all done for nothing. 

I doubt ND jobs will be true conscription, a system will be implemented where players can do a job of some sort, and get paid for it. MA will either have the payout low, or come from other players, so i'm unsure how the community will support it when it does come out.

I don't feel like tp taxes are the answer, i think there are a few to many tps and that a few could go, but its too late for them to remove / limit that service, just another system that people expect now a days.
If the taxes are are too low, its just a pointless money sink people will grumble about, to high and you might as well remove them anyway, and just right and you'll have people on both sides of the fence. 

Ghost, while i did have another response for you, i ended up leaving it over night and when i went to post it this morning, i found i'd been dc'ed and now its lost to the nether. But i doubt it would have swayed your mind so i guess it can stay there. 

I do want to say however that despite this idea space not going anywhere, since we ended up spending so much time trying to convince the other that their way is more correct, (not that MA was gonna see this and preform miracles over it anyway), but i do believe a fair bit of information has been passed between us for all to read, giving them the opportunity to connect this with other information online or in game and learn how to play better. 
While we don't see eye to eye due to our differing nature on the f2p topics, if i ever meet you in game, i'd be more then happy to help explain in game mechanics or get you started in something more sustainable. 
"It'll be fun" they said! But now, i have no Ped :(

EP goals:
Have lots of EPCC:
Got : None, They took em all man, they took em all!!!

Thanks for the great site Tia!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MaxHecWalker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jun 2016 at 7:25pm
"been asking for a better space system for ages"
True, and that's why I did not bring that subject up.  

"doubt ND jobs will be true conscription, a system will be implemented where players can do a job of some sort, and get paid for it."
I am guessing that your confusing the mandatory 15 hour TP protection, 
 with the promised minimum wage jobs.
Basically ND says 15 hours Minimum per month per player, 
 and each player must complete their 15 hours every month for 12 months before the player is even eligible for the minimum wage job.

Like you I also doubt ND will ram this policy through because people will demand he complete 15 hours monthly too...
But we must examine what has been officially published instead of guessing.
And this is because sometimes really stupid things happen, after-all who thought the jung family would still control North Korea for all these decades.



I agree with Ghostier the stats would be a great thing, unfortunately I don't believe that MindArk has ever published statistics for F2P vs P2P.  But hopefully I'm wrong and someone can give us a link??

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Barnesy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jun 2016 at 7:32pm
EU would have the highest paying ratio between active members in a f2p game. Other games have published / quoted an approximation of their games f20 paying ratio, rarely it's more then 15% but I could be wrong overal. 10/90 is a good reference for most f2p games these days as the people who play them are the younger gamers who don't have a job and what money they get form their parents, they don't want to put into what they already are 'getting' for free.
"It'll be fun" they said! But now, i have no Ped :(

EP goals:
Have lots of EPCC:
Got : None, They took em all man, they took em all!!!

Thanks for the great site Tia!!!
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